All Christians Should’ve Supported John Kerry
I’ll tell you why.
Jesus wants to build His church. We, as believers, are key in that plan. Thus, Christians should desire an environment in which the church of Christ will be purified and built most effectively.
That, my friends, is why we need a secular government.
Most would agree that the mainstream American church is lukewarm at best. This, under widespread religious freedom and general tolerance for the Judeo-Christian ethic.
But most would also agree that the Chinese church is dynamic and on fire, flourishing in a country where religion is oppressed and Christians are forced undercover.
Which would you rather have?
Persecution purifies the church. Consequently, the American church will be purified as more and more persecution is introduced. A convenient way to introduce persecution is for Christians to capitulate politically - let the secularists have the government. Then they’ll introduce laws promoting ungodliness and hopefully some others that will require Christians to stand up for the truth in face of severe opposition, inviting persecution and simultaneously shedding the excess weight that currently burdens the church while simultaneously strengthening the ones who are sincere in their belief.
That is why, as a Christian, you should have supported John Kerry in the last presidential campaign.
I’m only partially serious. But I am, in fact, partially serious. I realize this flies in the face of a lot of the worldview teaching that you’ll find in Scheaffer, Pearcey, and Miller (if this isn’t an exhaustive list, or even one that hits all the big names in this field, I apologize - it’s just the ones I’ve read or have in mind to read), but I think it is worth some thought at least. If you look at politics chiefly from the perspective of the health of the church (which is what God is ultimately concerned about), who is better, Bush or Kerry?
posted by Byran @ 2:17 PM
26 comments
26 Comments:
You know, I never thought about it in this way...gives a person something to think about...
I see your point but, why does the government have to be bad in order for the Christian to stand up for what is right? Technically it should be easier for us to stand if we don't have to worry about bad concequences. I totally agree that the mainstream church hasn't and isn't standing very solidly on what the Bible teaches.
Lavern
How far off your rocker are you? In order to vote for any certain government official, you should be able to support them in their beliefs. So let me see...
John Kerry
1) Pro-abortion (escuse ME, make that pro-CHOICE! Bah, humbug!)
1) Liar (consider Vietnam)
1) and on and on and on
George Bush
1) Pro-war (call it pro-peace from the standpoint that suppressing the oppressor brings peace...never true peace)
1) Pro-life
1) Pro-Israel
1) and on and on and on
I cannot support war. I cannot support abortion. I could not, in good conscience, support putting a person into a position that I could not, in good conscience, maintain myself. Therefore, it is expedient for us as Christians to pray for them and not become actively involved in politics
Byron is not off his rocker!!Byron didn't once say that we should vote for Kerry...he actually had a very good point..we know that when there is persecution the church prospers..and I dare say as a whole the churches in America are lukewarm. No maybe not all...but many are.
About ten years ago, I typed a thesis paper for a class I was taking at MBS. It explored the concept that persecution was better than peacetime, because the church has always grown and thrived in the midst of persecution. Folks, lets face it, we are approaching the end times, and the Bible says that things will "wax worse and worse". The efforts of the Moral Majority to moralize our secular governments will eventually fail! By is speaking somewhat tongue-in-cheek in promoting a Kerry administration, at least I hope so, anyway. No one seeks out persecution, but then one should not run from it when it eventually comes. We Christians should not be using secular methods to "hurry along" God's plan. We do not know God's plan, and apparently, God wanted President Bush to win the election. To have voted the other way would, for the Christian, be against God's plan.
You sure know which buttons to push, By. :)
Sure, good point. But not very applicable. In the O.T. God blessed His children with Godly rulers. When they were disobedient and He thought it was time He would raise up someone evil to rule. The majority involved in this blog probably don't vote, that's fine. But those of us that do must vote for people who support our beliefs. I don't think Kerry's reign would have brought persecution, simply promoted more evil. I also think that he was almost destined for office, but because the Christians rose up, God worked. And THAT is what politics are about! Christians making a difference and sadly most of us sit on our rears and do nothing!
Paul, you don't understand. By was not speaking tongue-in-cheek. He's a left-leaning liberal. Just ask Tom.
Vernon, no you dont understand!! Byron plainly gave us the reason why he thinks we should have supported John Kerry. He has a very good point.
I do think that Paul Yates had a good point also.
When does the church do better? In peaceful times or persecution?
Sure its easier on us when things go easy, but then its also very easy to get half hearted about our christian life..whereas when there is persecution, it would show up the true christians.
To the anonymous that mentioned about not voting. No, I do not vote because in the same way that I can't support Kerry's views on things like abortion neither can I support Bush in going to war. The reason for that is, I believe that while what Saddam and Bin ladin have done is very wrong, they are just as much in need of Jesus Christ as their Savior as any of us Americans. God views and loves them with the same love as he does us.
To me government will never and can never deal with the real issues behind bad men - 'all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.' Only God through Christ and the Holy Spirit can do that! Our job as Christians is to live a life that is wholly devoted to Christ because of what he has done for us. If we really do that then those around us will see that Jesus has the answers for life. Our influence should be like a rock thrown into a pond - the ripples sprend out further and further. It will be God working through his children. These are my thoughts - I hope they aren't to rambly.
Lavern
Interesting thought By! I cannot see any difference so far since Bush won, the status quo is remaining in Congress, especially in the Senate concerning the voting on Federal Judgeship appointments. The Republicans are not even using the majority they have to get these judges in place. By keeping him in office, Bush has made some changes in Iraq and kept most of the carnage away from the USA and Kerry may not have done this. However, we are paying a high price with many American lives and Iraqi lives.
I think the terrorism issue along with the "values" issues definitely helped Bush, but I now believe God wanted him in office, makes more sense to me.
If things do not improve, Hillary may be the next President and that may be worse than Kerry (she already has a 58% acceptance, mostly by women). Kerry never had a plan only the mirage of one, Hillary has many plans, and it won't be pretty. However, it still is God that will select the next President and whatever direction He wants the government to go.
God is in control no matter who wins, He uses the voting to accomplish His plan for the future of man just like He raised men up to be king or emperor in the past. The Bible says that God raises up the basest of men to positions of power if He so chooses, He raised up Pharoah for His purposes. No government will ever overcome God's eventual end to the world.
Starting a few years ago I began to think that it was important to "help" God and to vote and encourage others to vote for the "right" man. No longer, I have even publicly repented from such activity in the future to my brethren at our last counsel meeting.
I will not "judge" any other Christian if they vote, but only if my conference drops their proscription against voting will I consider doing so again. It may be doubtful even then, I do not see any major improvements in holy living being promoted by law, it did not work with the Jews.
Christians have survived under many forms of government, and have not done well under governments that are/were even partly sympathetic to their stance. Check the history, Christians flourished under the persecution of Rome, but once joined to Rome as a state religion the church degenerated into the church of the dark and middle ages, and did not start to regain balance until the Reformation. Even so called Christian aligned rulers and governments of the past committed many evil things under the name of God.
I dare to say that the church has not really ever regained the total balance it lost once it became a church/state entity; the Reformation did not change that error. Even the Anabaptists did better under the persecutions of both the Protestant and Catholic churches and the aligned governments of each (with the USSR/communism being the exception for some of the Mennonites)and Mennonites have practically died out, except in name, in Europe since persecution stopped. What great strides have the Mennonite Churches accomplished in the USA for that matter? Would entering politics help? I for one doubt it. Remember who offered the kingdoms of the world to Christ? We live within the kingdom of Darkness as the citizens of the kingdom of God and await our Lord to return and redeem the world.
I do not want persecution to come to the church, but I do see some Christians today living under extreme suffering and yet gladly doing so in the name of Christ. Do we want to serve boldly for Christ, or do we want to buy into the erroneous worldly idea that all suffering must be conquered on earth? Are we voting for someone to start Heaven on Earth? It will never happen; read the Word of God, the ending is there.
Thanks for the comments, people.
Paul says: "We do not know God's plan, and apparently, God wanted President Bush to win the election. To have voted the other way would, for the Christian, be against God's plan."
I'm not so sure about this line of reasoning, because if it wasn't for the religious right turning out en masse in this election, Kerry would have won and then he would have been God's will. What if the conservative Mennonites had turned out en masse and voted for Bush Sr. and defeated Clinton? Then, by the "whoever is put in is God's will" argument, His will would have been Bush and not Clinton. Seems like people can influence God's will or something.
By, you may be arguing in circles.
If God had wanted Bush 1 to have won instead of Clinton, He would have had the vote go that way, may be by drawing out the Mennonites or other usually non-voting Christians, or Wiccans, Buddists, Hindis, or any other religion.
No authority is granted unless it is given by God, for all authority is of God. God sets up and God removes, history is replete with this record. If only we knew the mind of God, may be we could grasp an understanding of His omnipotence and omniscience in these matters.
Ultimately I do not believe that you can even vote for or against God. It may not really matter who wins. God will use what ever choice is made by any election for His purposes. The Word of God says that God can use even the evil of man to accomplish His eternal purposes. What may seem impossible to man is possible with God.
After all, God is the Sovereign One, and Christ is LORD of lords and KING of kings.
And anonymous replies again....
Lavern, I in no way support voting if your church has a standard against it. That in itself is wrong, but if your church doesn't have a standard against voting simply saying that "I can't vote because I can't support war" is, I believe, a cop out. We have become lazy Americans in the name of religion. If someone really has a problem with voting then I wouldn't want them to do it, but do we as Christians not have the opportunity at our door to make the world a better place?
Has your church ever had an ordination? Have you ever voted for someone that you have not entirely agreed with? I'm sure you have and although this is stretching it a bit I hope you see my point.
I don't think everyone has to vote, but I do think we need to make a difference in some way if we have a conviction against voting. Over the pulpit I have heard people who are strongly against voting say that we simply need to pray about the elections, we need to make a difference in other ways. But do they? I have found that in voting I am a lot more involved. I pray more intensely. I seek God's face for our country more passionately. And I have needed to experience that.
Government can never take care of the real issues behind bad men, but government was sent up by God and we are commanded to support and honor them. Is complacency supporting and honoring? I'm rambling and probably sounding more radical than I mean to, but I'm simply trying to get you to see my point. We have no choice but to support government. It's been placed there by God, I guess the real issue is how involved should we be?
To truthseeker--
I don't think we are "helping" God by voting. Neither do I think that He cannot overrule. But facts are facts and God does allow nations to decide. If we as Christians rise up as a group we can make a difference. And I think that was portrayed in the past election. Christians vividly saw the difference of the two candidates in office and said, "This is NOT what we want for our country."
....adding to the last unfinished post........
And Christians standing up for what they believed made a difference.
I think our country is where it is today because of the people that did speak out. Why does it seem it's always the liberals that speak out? One woman instigated taking prayer out of schools. One woman!! And what did we do? We sat back and let it happen. We need to make a difference in the world and we're not. Complacency has infiltrated the church in a huge variety of forms.
So, my sermon:) If you don't vote, do something! Make a difference. Dont' think that just one person cannot have an impact on the future of a country. I don't know about you but I want my children to grow up in a country whose founding principles are upheld and valued and I will fight for that!
Anonymous replier:
"If we as Christians rise up as a group we can make a difference. And I think that was portrayed in the past election. Christians vividly saw the difference of the two candidates in office and said, "This is NOT what we want for our country."
May be you are right. My main concern is just what are "we" Christians wanting to rise up and accomplish? What is the goal that "we" Christians want to achieve in our voting, such as, establishing morality by law? Are "we" wanting to tell everyone else how they must live morally, whether Christian or not?
Is this truly "our" country? Or is not "our" country in a place called heaven? Jesus told Pilate that His servants would rise up and fight if His kingdom were of this world, that He, as our true king, would not be delivered over to the Romans.
"I think our country is where it is today because of the people that did speak out. Why does it seem it's always the liberals that speak out? One woman instigated taking prayer out of schools. One woman!! And what did we do? We sat back and let it happen. We need to make a difference in the world and we're not. Complacency has infiltrated the church in a huge variety of forms."
I believe that because this is not truly "our" country is the reason that these changes have come about. The changes truly represent the direction that most people want it to go.
OK, you say one person used the legal system to get prayer banned from school into the law of the land. I think it was bound to happen sooner or later whether that woman succeeded or not. The courts were only looking for someone to give them the chance to do this, and she did. It was the same thing with Roe v. Wade and the abortion issue, the courts use a law suit to gain a change in the law in a direction the courts (judges) wanted it to go. The teaching of evolution replaced creation in the schools in much the same manner, the society was going that direction, so the change was made.
Who sat around and let these issues "happen?" I did not see anyone voting for these changes in the laws of this nation. It happened in the courts, because that was the spirit of the age getting what it wanted. Will voting correct this situation? It may,if God permits. However, looking at the way the Republicans are using their new found majority power in making changes, I.E. selecting conservative judges, doesn't inspire me very much. Fear of loosing the filibuster in the future, apparently the Republicans assume they will return to minority status, seems to stop them from changing this unfair super-majority necessary for the filling of Federal Judgeship positions, which would answer all the issues that "we" Christians seek.
I, as a Christian, personally cannot work along side any worldly government, for it requires too much compromise of Christian principles. Governments have never in reality been the friend of Christians until this country became the temporary anomally it is within governments from the past. This country is moving back into the mold it was suppose to follow as a government, as a part of the kingdoms of the world controlled by Satan.
The Scriptures that I read tells me that it was Satan that offered all the kingdoms of the world to Jesus Christ, whicn Christ refused to accept. Jesus did not refute Satan's offer as not possible in fact, He refused on the grounds that Satan wanted His worship in payment for the kingdoms. So this tells me that the world is in Satan's grasp now, but Christ has won and will reclaim what is His when He returns. Until then Christians live for and serve God under whatever government they find themselves under. Whether a Roman, German, British, Democratic, Monarchy, Communist, or Fascist it should make no difference. We Christians are redeemed from sin and from Satan's control, why do we seek to work within Satan's kingdoms by attempting to redeem the government when we were commissioned to seek the redemption of the lost souls of mankind? May be if the Christian church had been true to the commission Christ left, these issues would have never arisen, but I think not, for the Scriptures tell us, 2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
And we Christians have this promise: Re 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
I do not say you cannot or may not vote as a Christian; I question why you would want to. May God lead us all into His perfect will.
It bothers me a little when Mennonites are so caught up in conversations like this because a bigger issue than nonresistance at a governmental level is nonresistance at a personal level, and that seems to be a weak point in the Mennonite church...too often Mennonites are fighting, bickering, hating, and back stabbing over the pettiest issues. To truly live in innocence, Mennonites need to focus foremost on love, acceptance, and nonresistance on personal level with each other and other Christians before they get to heavily involved in the issue of nonresistance on a governmental level.
- Different Anon.
Different Anon, Thank you for your input. Here is my thoughts on your thoughts.
There is no non-resistance on a governmental level. That is not the issue here. The issue is whether a Christian can or may participate within the political arena and still be obedient to God's Word. If a believer's conscience is clear in such participation then it is between the believer and God. That I am not to do so is a Biblical position the the Word of God teaches me in its many principles and doctrines.
Governments will never have a lack of citizens to serve the needs of government in any capacity. Some will undoubtedly be Christians.
As for your comments on the Mennonite church, I think that the last time I looked they were all humans and full of weaknesses due to the influence of sin despite the fact that they are redeemed. No one is able to BE perfectly non-resistant, but we are commanded to at least allow the Holy Spirit to help us grow in that direction.
Having said that, I do agree that Mennonites could do much better at being more loving and accepting toward others, and non-resistant to one another as well as others outside our church. I also see this as a need in the spiritual lives of all Christians in any church in the world. I have not seen or heard of any church that has perfected these aspects of Christian duty.
Now, why do you see it as a problem when imperfect people, whether Christian or not, offer a counter arguement in a public forum? I would think these imperfections that infect all of us humans would allow all people the right to public discourse. Do you offer your criticism in order to cause us to not participate within these public forums because we are imperfect as Christians? Or do we have to fix this lack within our testimony before participating in public forums?
As Christians, the kingdom we belong to has no geographical boundries. God wants our lives to be a plumbline(read the book of Amos) to the world. This will happen when we live His kingdom values(sermon on the mount) here and now. It will not happen by being involved in politics(voting,war,patriotism).
Thanks for the response, Truthseeker. You seem to be very balanced in your approach to these issues.
When I talked about non-resistance at governmental level I meant the issue of we as Christians being involved in governmental affairs (voting, going to war, etc.) because obviously there will be no non-resistance in governments themselves as long as there are earthly governments.
I guess what I was trying to say was that we truly need to strive to live above reproach and of course we are going to fail as humans because we are not perfect. But we as Christians need to focus foremost on our reactions and relations with other Christians because if we are not practicing peace, non-resistance, and love for each other on a personal level now, it is hypocritical and arrogant for us to function as non-resistant Believers when it comes to relating to government--hypocrisy and arrogance turns off potential Christians. We as Mennonites, and Christians as whole, need to be very careful with this and every issue, because if we are fighting, bickering, and judging in our churches and communities we mignt as well throw our belief in non-resistance out the window. But what would be best is to change our ways (if we are guilty of that) and be non-resistant the whole way around. Hopefully that made a bit of sense.
-Different Anon.
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
Different Anon, I agree with you on your last point completely! It's got to be lived daily to do any good.
Lavern
Different Anon, thanks for your return thoughts. You said:
"We as Mennonites, and Christians as whole, need to be very careful with this and every issue, because if we are fighting, bickering, and judging in our churches and communities we mignt as well throw our belief in non-resistance out the window."
I agree 100% with this statement. And I grieve over the fact that believers and church fellowships do these things to one another. We must avoid error, however that doesn't justify a spirit of fighting among us. Mennonite fellowships that differ in life and practice should not continue to attack one another in any way. I see it as a parallel to the arguments over Calvinism and Arminianism among believers and the anomosity that it can breed.
Our public lives should be in harmony with God's Word first, or we have nothing to offer the government we live under. If we were firm in this aspect of Christian living, think of the witness for God to such a violent world!
Non-resistance starts long before the war issue. This doctrine starts first within the believer's heart by action of the Holy Spirit's indwelling and transforming power. It is a basic underpinning of the faith. It is seen in the way we treat our spouses and children, then our brethren in the church and on into the world.
While we do have to deal with the government in many ways, I believe we must avoid public opinions about what the government does; our opinions must lead us to pray for the leaders over us as we are commanded and be extremely careful that we do not align ourselves with the political aspects surrounding the government.
Our Mennonite heritage is a record of avoiding participation in political involvement, our forefathers found it necessary to immigrate rather than participate throughout history. May we be found as faithful in our Christian walk.
Flashback to 1960. Heap big panic because there was a Roman Catholic running for the presidency v. a Quaker. Yup, John F. K(ennedy) v. Richard M. Nixon. And the Mennonites and Amish and everyone that thought the Pope would be running America via the Presidency voted for Nixon. More conservative Christians voted then than ever, before or after. And JFK won.
Who says that God doesn't put in whom He will for leaders?!?!
Sorry folks, I had a big mistake in my last post. Now its corrected. I just erased it and reposted the corrected statement.
To vote or not to vote aside (that is a different discussion than what By brought up).
Voting for John Kerry is saying that you support his policies. His policies are distinctly against a whole raft of Biblical principles. Voting for John Kerry is wrong. Now it may be God's will for John Kerry to win in order to refine the church. Are we so arrogant that we think we can disrupt God's will?
Our responsibility is to support the good. If the evil is elected as a result of God's will, then that's fine. It's up to God.
Are we supposed to remain silent (I'm not talking voting here) if someone asks us whether homosexuality is wrong? If we didn't say anything against it, it could speed depravity and make for a potent revival! This scenario is ridiculous. Each of us knows that we need to do the right thing, no matter what. If it's God's will to allow evil to result in ultimate good, he has the power to do so. He does not ask us to sin to complete his will!
vernon listed a number of issues and stances of the two candidates. Vernon, I see absolutely no reason to not vote for Bush in that list of policy differences. It is not the Christian's place to go to war, but it is the government's ordained of God mission to go to war to protect the good people.
Romans 13:1-7
1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. [Hmm... sounds like it might not be a sin to stand and hold your hat over your heart when the national anthem is played, as some would believe.]
Post a Comment
<< Home